DSG Build

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Frost
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Re: DSG Build

Post by Frost » Wed Sep 25, 2013 11:22 am

btw I got an SHS steel pinion gear to use with my 10:1 riot gears and it meshes great and you can pick one up for 3.50 plus shipping at hivemind airsoft. I have yet to field it and will write up a better review once I do, but the pinion looks strong.
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Re: DSG Build

Post by Skywalker » Wed Sep 25, 2013 5:21 pm

TheInfidel23 wrote:Well, to your point, I have done a huge amount of research on other forums, and I'm confident in my abilities and skills. I've seen these kind of build perform fine, feed great, and then their users go out and wreak the field.

I am honestly just not understanding where you are coming from, though. Your build just doesn't sound rig to me. Even if its a G&P motor, it should have no issue pulling just an M150, especially using a lipo. I'm not trashing your skill, but it should not "just not cycle"
Yeah, that was what I meant, you've clearly done some research, and didn't just see a youtube video title 50rps DSG and come ask us how to do it. I don't tinker with high speed builds anymore, so I'm hoping someone else will weigh in on my following section and provide a more accurate idea of stress levels.

I'm going to provide some made up data here, just for the concept. The details here are based on nothing specific:

Lets say that the stress (or torque if you will) on the motor of a M150 on 18:1 gears is a value of 1. ... When you change out those gears to 13:1, lets say that stress level goes up to a value 1.5. When you change out those gears to 10:1, lets say that stress level goes up to 2. This is what I mean about an exponential scale, right?---The initial 6:1 ratio change is good for a .5 stress level change, but the second ratio change of only 3:1 is also good for .5 stress level.

And then factor in the Spring Guide Spacer, which is pre-compressing the M150 to the strength of about a M210. (Check out the chart on page 7 here: http://www.siegetek.com/instructions/cyclone.pdf ) (There are some other variables, like having a variable pitch M150 spring, which means it isn't truely as much stress as a M210 for the full pull of the piston, but for my example, we're going to leave that factor out)

So then recreate my scale... M210 on 18:1 is something like 1.9 times as much stress as a M150, then M210 on 13:1 is 2.7, and M210 on 10:1 is a stress level of 3.4. (Let me be clear, these "Stress Level" numbers are all just an educated shot in the dark, not off anything specifically calculated. Just to provide an example)

So, sure, a motor that can handle a M150 on 13:1 gears is pretty powerful, at handling a stress level of 1.5. But pulling a pre-compressed M150 on 10:1s is a stress level of 3.4. That is a SIGNIFICANT difference. And in my case, the motor didn't have enough torque to cycle the GB when being run off a 11.1v battery.

When you step back and realize how much power that is crammed inside a GB, you can understand why the motor can't handle it. ...and why I bailed out... I had the pick up tooth resistance of something close to a M210 spring on 10:1 gears at 76rps. Things were going to blow up haha.

Were the 10:1 gears the only factor in the motor not turning? Surely no, I could have used a weaker spring, and maybe I would've been fine. But the gears didn't help. And they were the thing I spent the most money on, by far. So I'm just saying, think the build out all the way through before you just decide to buy the fastest possible gearset on the market (which is exactly the mistake I made).

Actually, after typing all this out, I just Googled "10:1 DSG Build" .. and found this video. Skip to 4:15



--I'll probably end up editing this post a little bit over the next few hours.
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Re: DSG Build

Post by Dominum » Wed Sep 25, 2013 6:24 pm

I'm not going to bother reading through all that, but I will say that Skywalker knows what he's talking about and that I totally agree with him that getting 70RPS as opposed to 50 is not worth it in the least. You can build a very reliable 50+ RPS setup that will rarely fail you (and when it does it will be an easy fix) with the RiotSC gearset and what amounts to an M170 or a custom spaced M150 (Mine ran at ~315-320 FPS w/.25g BBs with the custom short M150 and spacer). The first few times I built DSG setups I tried mixing and matching gears. After wasting needless money on several gears after having them destroyed (yes, they were shimmed perfectly [which was made even easier since they were in a V6 and I could be certain that the pinion/bevel contact was absolutely perfect], I got the full RiotSC set (I forget what ratio). If properly built with a rugged piston and appropriate other parts (which I can list if you want) they can be very reliable. I ran several tens of thousands of rounds through mine and then took it apart because I wanted half the parts for a Thompson build I was doing. Everything was still in good shape. Now, could I have run it at 70+ RPS with a higher FPS? Sure, but frankly if you shoot at someone at 50 RPS they will piss themselves just as much as if you shoot them at 70 RPS, and either way it's darn near impossible to miss your target, or have the target not know for sure they were just hit. Why sacrifice durability and worry yourself with extra work and parts cost, plus the annoyance of having a gun go down in a game, for an extra gain in ROF that gives you no practical benefit whatsoever? I am going to do another DSG build when I have the time, just for gits and shiggles, but honestly anything over 30 RPS isn't all that practical IMO. Then again, I don't like spending money on BBs, so I am a bit biased in regards to frugality.
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Re: DSG Build

Post by Star_folder » Wed Sep 25, 2013 7:23 pm

Boy, oh boy, this thread travels fast.

10:1 DSG + FT are a specially thing. You're talking ~50rps, something that can just as easily be done with 20:1s and an A2. But what is really changing. How is the force different. 20:1s spinning at 50rps are actually traveling much faster than 10:1s at 50rps, at least, the spur gear is. Arguably, the spur gear is under the most stress of any of the gears, and even more so in a 20:1 build. But, we're talking riots here, something that really laughs at stress. So, that leaves us to the motors. The FT runs efficiently, but super slow, super, super slow. It seems that it is literally traveling half the speed of an A2. Is that a good thing? Well, yes if you are limited to a small battery. But what if you aren't? What if you have any size battery you could need? Well, then it doesn't really matter. The difference really shows when you use different voltage batteries. They will scale much more with the A2 than with the FT. Because the FT is already slow, and voltage change is a linear change, the increased voltage of an 11.1 over a 7.4, and a 14.8 over an 11.1 will be much smaller than with an A2. But then, who really switches voltages all that much.

All that to say there's not much difference between one or the other. If you build the set up correctly, it will handle the load you put on it.

This talk of rps, and mags feeding are what are important. You plan on using an MP5, which uses MP5 mags, which are very poor at feeding. Even in stock set ups, they can have difficulties feeding. People that push guns past 50rps, and still feed, are all M4s. I would not push the MP5 faster than 50rps simply because of the limitation of the mags. And even there, you might have difficulty getting them to feed.

Something else to consider is the effectiveness of 50+rps. Dom said 30 rps is the effective point, I think it's 40 or 50. You can still miss, people can still dodge at 30. But 60, even 70 rps, well that's just cool. Being able to shoot that fast, heck, even feed that fast. Awesome! But dang, you'll empty a midcap in an instant, and a high cap in a few more instants. The bb stream density, if you want to call it that, doesn't increase all that much, actually. The likelihood that you hit a man with 50rps doesn't significantly increase if you are using 70rps.

To sum this all up. Regardless of what I may have said before, a 32TPA FT motor and 10:1 are what I suggest for your build. Reason being is the battery will be small, and won't supply much power, you'll need to make a system as efficient as possible.
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Re: DSG Build

Post by TheInfidel23 » Thu Sep 26, 2013 12:37 am

@skywalker, I didn't realize that spacer you had inside had the equivelent of that much power. My apologies for the confusion.

And for the rest of the panel here, I would be very happy with 50rps. 70 was just a goal, something to shoot for, no pun intended.

If needed, considering the inherent problems with MP5 magazines, I may have to get the longer, higher capacity mags and spacer them. As for the gun itself, yeah, it's sure as heck gun to be able to put that kind of firepower down range. From a practical stand point, I can't carry the amount of ammo to support a gun that in one second empties a magazine, and be effective in combat. Full auto would be very limited in use. Semi auto for the trigger response is what will be used most of the time. That said, low ratio gears and higher torque are the key for that equation.

And starfolder, the battery will not be small, by any means. I plan on getting a 5000 mah 35c 3s, wired to my person, and with a QD connector on the gun itself.

Thanks all for the feedback, it has been most helpful.

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Re: DSG Build

Post by Skywalker » Thu Sep 26, 2013 8:27 am

Yeah we all like talking about this stuff. No problem.
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Re: DSG Build

Post by TheInfidel23 » Wed Oct 02, 2013 12:11 am

Found a dirt cheap MP5k that I'm buying tommorrow. Will begin some diagnostics and parts list organization soon.

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Re: DSG Build

Post by thebutnugget » Sun Oct 13, 2013 10:32 pm

i built my dsg for 55 bucks,

suck on that
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Re: DSG Build

Post by Star_folder » Sun Oct 13, 2013 10:51 pm

thebutnugget wrote:i built my dsg for 55 bucks,

suck on that
A mouth full of bbs and a straw doesn't count.
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Re: DSG Build

Post by thebutnugget » Sun Oct 13, 2013 11:11 pm

Star_folder wrote:A mouth full of bbs and a straw doesn't count.

does it count if i used a bendy straw?
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Re: DSG Build

Post by TokenTech89 » Mon Oct 14, 2013 9:11 am

only if it is gravity fed in the bendy straw....

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Re: DSG Build

Post by TheInfidel23 » Mon Oct 14, 2013 5:46 pm

Enough straw talk, the 'k is here ;)

Initial disgnostics are pretty good, but as expected, most parts will be changed out.

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Re: DSG Build

Post by TheInfidel23 » Wed Oct 16, 2013 10:33 am

Copied and pasted from my post on airsoft society:

And a short overview of the cyma internals.

Motor: less eye popping than anticipated. I believe my JG blue has stronger magnets. Still a good motor, but not the near FT I was expecting. D type with grub.
Gears: G&P, weird. Pretty beefy.
Piston: very good for a stock gun. 5 metal release end teeth.
PH: ported, normal.
Cylinder: normal. I find the Lack of ports disturbing.
Ch: normal.
Nozzle: clear plastic. Not a dream of airseal here.
Tappet: flexible as a wet noodle. Not sure if its stood thing or bad thing, but it's getting changed out.
Hop up: average. Nothing extraordinary.
Barrel: laughably short. A whole 1/2" longer than my glock barrel. And there are no ports on the cylinder, at all -_____-
Spring: presuming a m100 or m110. Not a lot of power. Gotta watch for PME.
Spring guide: metal BB, surprisingly.
Bearings: smooth as silk. Will be changing out in the interest of not having small frags inside my gun.

Other notes:
Shims were extremely thin, I wish I could find aftermarket shims this thin. On a side note, not one shim matched another.
Stock tuning was tight. AOE is crap as usual. Grimy grease, as usual.
Gearbox has the texture of plastic, actually pot metal. Maybe seeking replacement for long term high stress stuff.
Hybrid version 3, reminiscent of a sig. V3 box with an insert on the bottom, which couples to the grip and long type motor.
Shimming the bevel was a PITA due to the grip basically including the entire lower frame of the gun.

Overall, extremely happy. Got this for $65 shipped, and shipping was $15. So basically I got the gun and two mags for $50. I would be happy with the gun for a stock one, but this will make a great upgrade platform. The one problem is battery space, and I've got a few ideas for that

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Re: DSG Build

Post by TheInfidel23 » Mon Oct 21, 2013 9:36 am

Ok, this is probably what I'm going to be ordering Tuesday or Wednesday:

2nd gen 10:1 riot DSG gears
Chaoli 28 TPA short type motor*
SHS-
-nozzle
-tappet
-CH
-d-pinion
-blue piston
-v3 contacts
-7mm bushings
Lonex-
-POM PH
-BB spring guide
Prommy m170 spring

*due to legality complications with a school project, I will be temporary using a motor cage and will need a short type torque motor. That will be going in the tacticool AK after.

Looking to get near 50 rps from this drivetrain and a 3s 35-70c 5000 mah lipo. So far the mp5 mags look like they are gonna feed ok, I'll cross that bridge when I come to it.

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Re: DSG Build

Post by Star_folder » Mon Oct 21, 2013 10:05 am

A 28tpa motor will give you 55-60 in that build with that battery. A 32tpa motor would give you the 50rps you seek.
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