Historically Accurate Loadout

[Dominum]

This question is mostly directed towards those with some experience and knowledge on this subject. I have never put together a completely historically accurate loadout of any kind, and I'm not certain where to start or how to know if I am doing it right, so if you can offer some assistance or links, please do.

Essentially what I'd like to do is assemble a complete Vietnam loadout based on a Thompson M1A1 (though not extremely common, they were still used by some reconnaissance units) and a Colt M1911A1. I also already have an M1 helmet, and judging by the suspension and strap, it is period correct. I'd like to base everything off of a reconnaissance unit that was issued Thompsons, maybe the 7th Cav or something similar? Possibly you could point me to a site with an assembled list? Quality reproductions are fine with me, originals are preferable if cost is not significantly more. Any help is appreciated, thanks.

[Bishop]

http://www.vietnam-airsoft.com/phpBB3/v ... 4319c99082


Might be what you are looking for.

[Dominum]

Thanks, read it; basically it says there were Thompsons in the hands of US GIs during VN (but not many), and that there may have also been copies of them made by the VC, but not sure. That's about it, but the rest of the forum may have some good info, gonna dig around there.

[fallout11]

The Thompson had been retired from regular US military use by 1960. By the time of the Korean War, the Thompson had seen much use by the U.S. and South Korean military, even though Thompson had been replaced as standard issue by the M3/M3A1. With huge numbers of guns available in army ordnance arsenals, the Thompson remained classed as Limited Standard or Substitute Standard long after the standardization of the M3/M3A1. Many Thompsons were distributed to Chinese armed forces as military aid before the fall of Chiang Kai-Shek's government to Mao Zedong's Communist forces in 1949 during the Chinese Civil War. During the Korean War, American troops were surprised to encounter Chinese Communist troops heavily armed with Thompsons, especially during surprise night assaults. The gun's ability to deliver large quantities of short-range automatic assault fire proved very useful in both defense and assault during the early part of the conflict. Many of these weapons were captured and placed into service with American soldiers and Marines for the balance of the war.
During the Vietnam War, some South Vietnamese army units and defense militia were armed with Thompson submachine guns, and a few of these weapons were used by reconnaissance units, advisors, and other American specialist troops. It was later replaced by the M16 assault rifle. Not only did some U.S. soldiers have use of them in Vietnam, but they encountered them as well. The Viet Cong liked the weapon, and used both captured models as well as manufacturing their own copies in small jungle workshops.

I am far from an expert on all matter relating to US forces in Vietnam, as I traditionally play either PAVN (People's Army of Vietnam) or Vietminh myself and at present only have an airsoft "impression" for them. That said, I have written a few "how to....on the cheap" articles for Vietnam airsofting, including for both US and USMC forces in Vietnam, from back when we used to either run or attend Vietnam events frequently, and have reprinted one of them below for you.
But there are better experts to consult. One of my own teammates, Johnathan Simpson (Savoy6 on this forum) could help you better in that regard.

[fallout11]

Typical US soldier 'in country':

1. Deck of Luckies with a couple of sticks of "Mekong mindf**k" tucked inside.
2. LAW rocket launch tube.
3. Spare 60 mm mortar rounds.
4. M-16 automatic rifle (aka Jammin' Jenny).
5. Dozen or so M-16 clips.
6. 50 rounds shotgun ammo.
7. Sawed-off 12-gauge pump (no sport plug).
8. Flak jacket pockets filled with grenades: frags, C-2 tear gas, and white phosphorous incendiaries.
9. Ka-bar fighting knife.
10. C-4 plastique charges.
11. First aid kit full of morphine styrettes
12. Canteens full of whiskey.
13. Satchel full of plastique detonator caps.
14. No insignia of any kind.
15. Pockets full of more grenades, shotgun shells, M-16 clips, C-4 charges, morphine styrettes, piastres, and a bag of dead VC ears.
16. Leeches the size of your feet.
17. Inside pack: Claymore mines, M-79 rifle grenades, more plastique charges and canteens full of whiskey, PRC-25 radio tuned to "bull-shit frequencies", and .45 service automatic concealed to avoid being fragged as an officer by his own men.


Remember the advice given to me by a juicehead lifer E-6 while we were pinned down behind a dike in this stinking rice patty, and you might just get out of The 'Nam in one piece:
"Incoming has the right of way."
"If your Sergeant can see you, so can the enemy."
"Never worry about the bullet with your name on it. Instead, worry about shrapnel addressed to 'occupant'."
"Never draw fire; it irritates everyone around you."
"Don't be conspicuous. In the combat zone, it draws fire. Out of the combat zone, it draws Sergeants."
"If the enemy is in range, so are you."
"Always remember, your equipment was made by he lowest bidder."
"The buddy system is essential to your survival; it gives the enemy somebody else to shoot at."
"Always try to look unimportant, they may be low on ammo."
"If you can't remember, the Claymore is pointed toward you."
"The problem with taking the easy way out is that the enemy has already mined it."
"If you really need an officer in a hurry, take a nap."
"Tracers work both ways."
"A sucking chest wound is nature's way of telling you to slow down and take it easy."
"If your short on everything but enemy, you're in combat."
and finally
"The enemy diversion you are ignoring is the main attack."

[fallout11]

Putting together a passable US Army or USMC Vietnam-era impression is pretty easy and not that expensive:




UNIFORMS:
Except for very early (pre-1966) or very late (after 1970), typical US and USMC personnel "in the field" and/or out on patrol would have worn either Type 2 (exposed buttons) or Type 3 (covered buttons) Olive Drab Jungle Fatigues. These were simple cotton poplin olive green versions of modern bdus, with a couple of notable exceptions, such as slanted chest pockets on the jacket and an extra piece of fabric (gas flap) inside the jacket opening.
These modernesque and functional battlefield uniforms replaced decades of hodge podge less-utilitarian wear, and were a huge step forward, being rugged, comfortable, and effective. They were so liked that the pants were often stolen and worn by the Vietcong.
Despite chemical vat dying, the cotton fabric faded in the severe tropical Indochina sun, resulting in color variations ranging from dark olive to light medium green.

1a) An exact reproduction of the Type 3 jungle fatigues ($50/set):
http://fullmetaljacket.com/catalog/repr ... 3f576e8101
http://fullmetaljacket.com/catalog/repr ... 3f576e8101
Another source:
http://www.workinggear.com/gc/customer/ ... ctid=18777
http://www.workinggear.com/gc/catalog/R ... at708.html

1b) Another inexpensive alternative, a 'modern' Tru-Spec solid OD green cotton ripstop bdu set ($50/set):
http://www.georgia-outfitters.com/od.shtml
The Tru-spec OD bdus are the closest in color to OD#107, the as-issued coloration. These same duds will prove useful in many other operations, including WW2 and even modern-themed events.
Avoid the Propper brand OD bdus, they're visibly the wrong color and look odd (too bluish green).

1c) Another alternative, especially for USMC impressions, is an old surplus nylon flak jacket ($?) and simple OD t-shirt ($7):


The old lumpy nylon OD flak jackets used to be nearly free and readily available (back in the 1980's). Today, I have no idea where to get one for a reasonable price.
While not allowed at OP: Hac Bao, just the plain OD green T-shirt was often worn by our troops, when they could get away with it.
http://www.workinggear.com/gc/catalog/R ... at628.html
http://www.militarycraft.com/bdu_camouf ... olycotton/


HEADGEAR:
Period headgear is required at all our historical events.

2a) Actual US M1 steel pot helmets are still cheap, check any surplus store. They changed only slightly from 1942 to the mid 1980's (when they were replaced by kevlar models). Dutch, Danish, Belgian, Austrian, French, early Israeli, and Greek pot helmets were also identical for decades. Any will work. It has 3 key parts, the steel shell, the plastic liner, and the suspension (attached to the liner). The shell goes over the liner, which goes on your head. Also very useful for WW2-themed events ($25):
http://www.sportsmansguide.com/net/cb/u ... x?a=571896
Surplus stores carry these for about the same price.

2b) Cheap plastic version of US pot helmet ($16):
http://www.cushmanpaintball.com/GIHelmetPage.html
Lighter, but crappier than the real mccoy.

2c) If you just can't be bothered with a helmet, get a triangular piece of OD green cloth, such as a surplus bandage, and wear it as a bandana (or "drive-on rag") for that "in country" look ($3):
http://www.galaxyarmynavy.com/item-4348od.asp


2d) As a general rule, no boonie hats. Only special forces, LRRP's and the like wore boonies. That ain't you, son. Sorry to have to break it to ya'.
Some events may allow these, in either OD green or Tiger stripe. Small brim "Gilligan" style was what was used/issued, not the big wide brimmed panama-style boonies you see today.

If you go with a helmet (2a or 2b), as you should, try to cover it with one of the following:
Mitchell Pattern helmet cover, very common in Vietnam, but very hard to find today in decent condition ($15-$40):
http://www.mooremilitaria.com/Cover%20used.JPG
Ebay is your best source for these. These faded badly, even at the time, so even a bad one is okay. Secure it with a piece of black rubber (inner tube rubber works great) around the helmet, just above the brim.

Helmet netting, less common in Vietnam ($7):
-Broken Link- http://www.ima-usa.com/product_info.php/products_id/510
For USMC personnel, WW2-era "Duck Hunter" camo covers were also still in sporadic use ($30):
http://www.mooremilitaria.com/USMC%20Helmet%20Cover.jpg


FOOTWEAR:
For Vietnam, the US military issued a new boot, the "jungle boot". These mixed black leather and OD green fabric boots were cooler and more comfortable in the tropics than the all leather boots they replaced, and had better functionality (better traction, etc). The heavily lugged "Panama" sole was used at the time.
3a) Exact reproduction Vietnam-era leather and nylon green jungle boots ($70). Not exactly cheap, but you get what you pay for:
http://www.vtarmynavy.com/green-jungle-boot.htm

3b) Cheap chinese knock-off jungle boots ($18-$20):
http://www.majorsurplus.com/Jungle-Boots-P13724.aspx
http://www.amazon.com/Brigades-Action-G ... _pr_sims_t
Look great, but your feet may hate you. Get the olive ones, the black ones didn't exist yet.

3c) And of course, there's whatever kind of boots you already own (quite acceptable for our purposes). Non-combat troops in Vietnam (armor and air crews, for instance) wore black leather boots, so these are decent choices.

Pants legs were typically bloused into the boot tops, to keep the massive leeches and ants found in Vietnam out of one's pants.

To dress up your uniform, don't forget the ubiquitous OD green towel, used to wipe the sweat out of your eyes. This was, according to many, the single most valuable piece of gear one could score ($10 for 2). Or check your local Chinamart or Target store.

All that remains is field gear.
For airsofting, very little of this is actually needed, or even desirable, as was the case with Vietnam vets.... You don't want to hump too much gear through the jungle.


LOADBEARING GEAR:
US Vietnam era loadbearing gear consisted of a canvas (M56) or nylon (M67) wide OD pistol belt, H-yoke suspenders (later Y-suspenders), two rectangular ammo pouches, a first aid/compass pouch, and one or two plastic canteens with canteen covers. A OD buttpack typically completed the set.
Nylon gear slowly replaced canvas gear, as the canvas rotted badly in the tropics.
USMC personnel wore different suspenders, but otherwise gear was very similar.
4a) You can get genuine M-56 and/or M-67 pistol belts, suspenders, and first aid pouches here, but expect to pay a premium for them:
http://fullmetaljacket.com/catalog/viet ... 3f576e8101
http://www.mooremilitaria.com/prod01.htm
http://www.bayonetinc.com/store/categor ... U.S.-Gear/
For those seeking to go all out, these guys on Ebay offer complete sets of M-56 gear, for under $100.
http://search.ebay.com/_W0QQfgtpZ1QQfrp ... 2dventures (Edited by Lurch: The Gear Guys are now selling their LBEs, rucks, uniforms, & other items under the new moniker of Joint Military Ventures, although they're still selling props out of the The Gear Guys eBay store still)

4b) You can get new repro butt packs, H and Y yoke suspenders, and pistol belts here for a bit less, with a bit less fidelity as well:
http://www.fatiguesarmynavy.com/store/c ... Packs_Gear

4c) The cheapest and cheesiest alternative is surplus "ALICE" (LC-2) gear, which is quite similar to the M67 equipment ($20):
http://shop.sportsmansguide.com/net/cb/cb.aspx?a=361084
Comes with belt, suspenders, ammo pouches, one canteen and carrier, and first aid pouch.
To make ALICE pouches look more period, cut the front grenade loops off the mag pouches with a seam ripper so the sides pouches are flat.

4d) One very common item used by Vietnam-era soldiers, but that no one else seems to emphasize, is the cloth ammo bandoleer or "repack kit", used to hold spare M14 or M16 rifle ammo on stripper clips ($6-$8):
http://www.mooremilitaria.com/prod03.htm
http://www.fredsm14stocks.com/catalog/acc.asp

A bit of hunting around can find you better bargains, now that you know what you are looking for.

Keep in mind that there should be no Velcro on your gear and no modern accessories such as drop leg platforms, dump pouches, etc.
Modern tactical gear and loadbearing vests are wildly inappropriate.


CANTEEN:
US canteens started the war as metal, but were later made from injection molded plastic (identical to modern US canteens). Either way, an OD cover/carrier held them on the pistol belt.
5a) US metal canteen with Vietnam-era OD nylon cover ($10):
http://www.armynavydeals.com/asp/produc ... BG217&ST=2

5b) Walmart carries a cheap metal canteen with OD cover, somewhat like this ($5):
http://www.rothco.com/showpics/index.cfm/item/1283
Brand is either "Rothco" or "Ozark Trail", and comes with a canvas web belt. Stencil "US" on the carrier and belt (if you use it) in black.

5c) Another metal canteen, OD canvas cover, and canvas web belt set for a mere ($9):
http://www.basspro.com/servlet/catalog. ... rchResults
Again with the stenciling.

5d) Modern US plastic canteen with modern US nylon cover. You probably have one already ($0).

[fallout11]

Final note: All of the above was originally written/posted by myself on our old team forums ~6+ years ago, prices and links probably are waaaaaay out of date. I just meant to steer you in the right direction. Some of the above is also "less than fully accurate", but was meant as a "get you by on a budget" and still look the part.
What I usually suggest on matters of historical airsofting (or reenacting, for that matter), is to find a period photograph that you want to emulate, and duplicate it.
Hope that helps some Dom.

[Dominum]

That helps a lot, thanks a bunch. Gonna read for a bit now LOL.

[Crawler86]

you can get the OD green Bdu from the Army Navy Store in Columbia but don't waste your money on the reproduction VN boots

[SteevoLS]

You have both the build and the propensity for sweating to pull this off. DO EET.

[savoy6]

if you go with the thompson....it was in limited use by US line units....usually traded for from ARVNs that had them or CIDG or ruffpuffs....they were common among naval riverine patrol forces..(i.e. TF 116....my dad was there for 4 years). some members of recon units used them...

ARVNs used them a lot...usually for NCOs.....but they could be large for them..

all in all it would be up to you....i'd say that you could go with a set of jungle fatigues,patrol cap or m1 helmet,jungle boots..(don't get the rothco cheapies,your feet will never forgive you...),standard M56 web set up and just use the M3 grease gun pouches for the thompson mags...

[Foxx]

You guys pretty much covered it.

I only skimmed through this thread so I'm sorry if I restate some things.

As previously posted, I can vouch for the the Rothco brand VN uniform. I can tell you that as well as being an accurate repro, it's light and very comfortable. I don't like the Rothco VN boots though.. They're more for costuming and will fall apart on you.

Here's where I got mine from. Don't know if it's any cheaper than the previous links, but just putting it out there:
Undershirts were white in early VN, but OD was later made standard. I prefer the latter.
http://shop.vtarmynavy.com/vintage-viet ... p3558.aspx
http://shop.vtarmynavy.com/vintage-viet ... p3560.aspx

You'll probably have a hard time finding the ever popular Mitchell pattern helmet cover. Well, for a low price anyway. I got really lucky with mine. Don't forget to put all kinds of convenience items in your helmet such as a zippo, a lucky card, insect repellant, etc.
http://mpmuseum.org/securuniform/hats/nato2.jpg

For suspenders, you want M56's. They're easy to find and very durable. Don't buy ALICE Y-suspenders unless you want to look lazy.
http://www.combatsportsupply.com/images ... enders.jpg

As far as mag pouches go, I'm not familiar with VN era Thompson pouches. Probably aren't much different than an M3 mag pouch. I've seen some that clip on to your pistol belt as usual, and some that have a shoulder strap for carrying like a satchel. Personally, I'm still using late VN m16 pouches (not that I can even fit my M3 mags in them) for looks until I can find some M3 pouches that aren't dry rotted to hell.

Also, an M17 gas mask bag is a cheap and easy to find accessory that really adds to the loadout. Not to mention adds more storage space to your rig.

For reference, me at the last game I wore my VN stuff too:
(ignore my unexplainable pelvic-thrust)
Another note, you might need to get creative with where to put your radio. They stick out pretty badly on a VN setup..

[idiot88]

Ebay usually has a bunch of Mitchell helmet covers though you can decide for yourself if the prices are good or not.
http://www.ebay.com/sch/i.html?_trksid= ... &_from=R40

Somewhat related to this, I just received a Mitchell camo jacket three days ago. It has the cloud camo in the inside covered by a lining so I am going to attempt to make it reversible.

[ibeezthecapn]

You have both the build and the propensity for sweating to pull this off. DO EET.

I'm working on a vietnam grenadier loadout.... so if Dom gets to be Jack Black I call robert downey jr and who gets ben stiller? never go full tard on em

[Dominum]

I go full retard.