Operation Graycell I *Immersive RealMil* Nov14-16

[Dominum]

Nope, but here's a link to the discussion about that to give you my reasoning:

https://www.facebook.com/events/955215204535298/

(Scroll down a bit, it's posted by James Biggins)

[RaoulDuke]

Hmm I understand your point. I just think it lends itself to a more realistic firefight if i squeeze off 8 or 10 semi-auto shots aimed directly on a target. As opposed to more spray and pray approach that happens more often when full auto is used. From my understanding well trained modern soldiers almost never switch to full auto unless very very dire situations arise. In my experience where that rule was implemented semi-auto never put me at a disadvantage but the support weapons did suppress more so than any other game.

[Dominum]

I hate to hit you with copypasta and I'm not trying to be short with you, but since I've already typed pretty much the same thing, I'm going to do that rather than retype it slightly differently


(1)American MilSim did this at the last Faded Giant, I believe. Here's my thoughts on it: First, at VPII, players were allowed to use one hicap. At GCI, there will be no hicaps for anyone but support gunners. Ergo, a player with a 600rnd hicap in their AK was, as James Biggins pointed out, not at a huge disadvantage to a support gunner. This won't be the case, even with a high quality midcap, you can't go more than 140ish rnds without having to reload.

The primary practical game mechanic reasons:
(2)Years and years ago, a "standard" ratio of 3 to 1 for BBs versus real rnds was come up with as sort of a consensus by the RealMil/MilSim community based on factors like the range disadvantage, inherent accuracy disadvantage due to firing a spherical projectile, and primarily the difficulty of shooting through brush/leaves/etc. This is why midcaps became acceptable as a rough equivalent to real steal mags, you simply need more rounds to hit a target (generally speaking). When you are trying to shoot someone in a firefight, it's rare that you have a clean shot on them. Whereas in real life, a round will go where you point it, in airsoft it doesn't always hold true. A slight bit of wind or brush will usually stop the first round from being on target, which is why a short controlled burst is a far more practical option. Additionally, the fact that a single BB hitting a pouch is often not felt, and therefore not called, means that a short burst is a better option. I have found in my own experience that even when I have someone totally dead to rights I still have to use a burst because, aiming for CBM, I often hit their gun with a single round. In addition, the average AEG has an extremely slow trigger response when compared to what it's trying to replicate. All of these factors mean that being limited to semi automatic only for the average AEG is an unrealistic hindrance.

(3)If AEGs had the same effective range, trigger response, lack of hit calling issues, and ability to punch through brush as real steel then yes, I'd agree with you... and I'd also make you run realcap mags.

(4)The other thing that must be considered is what the purpose of a support weapon is. It is not to be a bigger, meaner assault rifle. In fact, a support gunner shouldn't be concerned at all with how many people he 'kills'. The purpose of a support weapon is to provide sustained fire that will do one of the following things: force the enemy to take cover and remain static; prevent movement by the enemy into a position; encourage movement by the enemy in a certain direction; provide a base of fire to 'pin' the enemy while another element flanks. Assault rifles, due to their limited magazine capacity, simply can't do this. Even if a player has 10 150rnd midcaps and tries to act like a support gunner, he will not only have to pause and reload often, but he will run through everything he has in a very brief engagement. While he may have the ability to fire in full auto, it doesn't give him the capability to sustain fire that a 4000rnd M60 has. Hence, even allowing full auto for the average player at this game will not negate the huge advantage of a support weapon, IF and only IF it is used properly. Limiting everyone except support gunners to semi auto makes it so that support gunners that don't know how to use a support weapon properly have an advantage. NOT limiting every player to semi auto means that support gunners that don't know how to be a support gunner don't have much of an advantage, but those that do, do. I gave careful consideration to this idea when it became an issue last year. In practice, it gives too big of an advantage to support gunners, most of whom have no clue how to do their job... they just want to paintsoft at a "MilSim" game.

My answers to some specific points made in support of this idea:
"It gives more of an advantage to support gunners who have the disadvantage of having to carry heavier gear."-I don't think the slight disadvantage of a heavier gun needs so huge an advantage as to be the only people on the field that can use full auto. Having the ability to fire 4000 rnds without stopping versus 100-150 rnds without stopping is already more than enough of an advantage to trade off for a few extra pounds. Obviously this is subjective, but we'll definitely have to disagree there.

"Plus, it adds a good bit of immersion, which I can speak from experience about."-I don't know what you mean by that; immersion is not negatively affected by whether or not there is fully automatic or semi automatic fire. Immersion is negatively affected by things that remind you that you're not doing what you're pretending to be doing, like leaving the field for meals, etc.

"It makes gameplay more dynamic"-Again, I fail to see how that would be the case, in fact it could be the opposite. I have personally watched this gameplay mechanic cause stagnation in a fire firefight, not force change or improvement in gameplay. I remember specifically a game at GTI where two support gunners were holding a building near the pipe yard and, because we could not get any support weapons up and we could only fire in semi, the attack was eventually given up because no headway could be made by forces at a marked and unrealistic disadvantage.

"and forces squad leaders to think a bit more about who to put where on the battlefield."-not any more than they would be forced to give thought to it otherwise...

My response to your specific points:
"Hmm I understand your point. I just think it lends itself to a more realistic firefight if i squeeze off 8 or 10 semi-auto shots aimed directly on a target. As opposed to more spray and pray approach that happens more often when full auto is used."
Reference section (2) and (3) above. Also bear in mind that you can choose to use semi auto, and so can your comrades. Many people will in many circumstances, especially considering their limited ability to reload and prolonged operations. Additionally, with how slowly BBs move, what do you do when you can't directly aim at a target because it's moving? It takes some downright amazing timing to hit a rapidly moving target in airsoft using semi, and what happens when you have them dead to rights but they're behind a bush? If you shoot semi they'll get better cover before you can punch through... if you put a burst in the bush then you hit them. There are all sorts of these situations where the poor accuracy, limited brush moving ability, and extremely slow speed of an airsoft projectile merit the use of using full auto in order to gain a kill that would in real life be easily obtained using semi auto, but in airsoft would be lost using semi auto. If people choose to spray and pray at this game, they'll be spending most of the event with empty mags.

"From my understanding well trained modern soldiers almost never switch to full auto unless very very dire situations arise."
Reference Section (3) above. Also bear in mind that they always have that ability when it is necessary, it's just necessary more often in airsoft because they aren't moving 1200 FPS in a nearly perfect straight line and weighing 4 grams.

"In my experience where that rule was implemented semi-auto never put me at a disadvantage but the support weapons did suppress more so than any other game."
Support weapons aren't OP in real life, and they shouldn't be in airsoft. The advantage of a support weapon in airsoft should be the same as it is in real life: the ability to sustain fire for prolonged periods. The fact is that most support gunners in airsoft choose not to use it properly, and thereby negate the advantage it affords. Support gunners in airsoft don't need another big advantage to make them worthwhile... they need to stop behaving like riflemen while carrying their support weapon.

[fallout11]

Just checking in to see if/when the rosters might get updated. I know you don't check FB much Dominum. =)

[Dominum]

Sorry about that, forgot to update the OP, but it's fixed now.

[fallout11]

Is there a minimum number of attendees required to make this a go, or will it be postponed/scrubbed if there are fewer than X registrants on the close of pre-registration? I have several fence sitters here who do not want to make a commitment for a very small (participant) event, and/or are concerned that they will not be able to get a refund if the event goes forward with only two or three dozen folks.

[Dominum]

There is no minimum, and it will not be postponed or scrubbed unless there's a hurricane or something to that effect. I do normally issue refunds to players if they are unable to make it and give me some notice.

[Dominum]

FAQ:
Yes, you can bring your own generator to your faction FOB
No, you will not carry everything on you at all times, you will camp at the FOB
Yes, the FOB is live which means eyepro on UNLESS you are inside a SEALED tent
No, you MAY NOT leave your vehicle at a FOB or on the field
No, you WILL NOT be able to leave the field of play for any reason during the event, unless you are leaving to go home. I.E. you won't have access to your vehicle in the parking lot during the event
Yes, EVERYTHING stated in the thread will be CHECKED and ENFORCED. It is YOUR responsibility to read thoroughly and be in compliance at all times.

[fallout11]

Can we get a restriction on night operation of personal generators? Nothing is more annoying in a light and sound discipline environment, or when trying to grab that 2 hours of sleep than the roar of some knucklehead's generator.
Having more than one battery is kind of a requirement for anything more than backyard airsoft.

[Dominum]

Generators will be limited to each faction's FOB, running time will be restricted at the discretion of your Commanding Officer, in your case that's Uboat4. Light pollution at the FOB Will normally be restricted to red to limit impairment.

[Dominum]

AAR and discussion: http://www.aosc.us/forums/viewtopic.php?f=19&t=8175