June 25, 2011--Operation Blackwater

[Dominum]

Well you can always do that, and I have seen factions do it before. In a CO position I have ordered my mine to do so, but only when the third party had nothing of benefit to offer us.

A lot of people also seem to be missing the fact that the ONLY reason you needed our help to win the game was to get the bomb out of our initial possession (which happened very early in the game). After that, no one needed our help to win. We tried to help Bravo out by selling them the weapons expert from Alpha, but after waiting until his mandatory release time without seeing any money we were required to let him go respawn. We tried to help Bravo more, but it is not our fault that we waited for over half an hour with not a red cent to show for it.

[Murphy]

"If you see a group of armed men you know are not on your faction approaching, do you let them walk in and mill about? No. You draw your weapons up"

This is notably what BW did NOT do half of the times i saw them. They waltzed up as if dead or friendly. Now i'm not fool enough to stand up and walk towards them to chat, and i did have my weapon drawn and aimed every time.

I was unaware they were allowed to shoot anyone they wanted whenever they wanted. I was under the impression that if they were paid for a mission they had to strive towards said mission until paid more to do otherwise.

Why would we ever pay charlie if we knew that as soon as we handed them the money they could shoot us on site? It doesnt make sense. I know a truthful charlie team may seem like less fun for charlie, but its more fun for everyone altogether.

Now I'm no fool Dom, you know that. After you killed all of us in south base (first time i was killed by charlie, and last) i coaxed forest in for a safety kill. If charlie is gonna play that game then so am i. When steevo and i got back to south base i gave matt a hug with pistol in hand, pointed at his back.

If we play another game like this, and charlie plans to play the same way, i either want to BE on that team, or be on my own team.

Never trust a charlie.

[Dominum]

No one ever said that Blackwater wasn't allowed to betray players, in fact it was made about as clear as possible that we could. Who told you otherwise? No one ever waltzed up as if dead, that would be a violation of game rules. Did you see anyone with their deadrag on doing that? Of course we came up as if friendly, and half the time we were at the moment. That was the whole point! You made an assumption that was not based on anything other than preconceived notions from other games, which you were specifically told NOT to hold to. "Why would we ever pay charlie if we knew that as soon as we handed them the money they could shoot us on site? It doesnt make sense." Did you read my posts ?

[Murphy]

your posts were tl;dr for the most part xD

And u never made an assumption, first time i was approached by any BW it was arbee and guys, gun raised, as well as several other alpha guns on them i asked who they were working for. they said "no one", so i knew they weren't bound to tell me anything else. I kept my gun ready and my eye on them until they were out of site.

The second time i encountered BW was when you and the roughly 5 others came into south base. None of you had weapons drawn, but unbeknownst to you, i did. and i asked the fist guy to step in who you were working for at the time and he said alpha. when i asked again for clarification you had gotten close enough to hear and kind of shrugged my question off.

It leaves a bad taste in my mouth when people lie when playing airsoft. So i don't think it should be a teams legal ability to cheat other people out of bases, kills, lives, or objectives.

[Felix]

Felix- no hard feelings man. you just made that safety kill to easy and i got a $400,000 reward out of it and our weapons expert back. I enjoyed meeting alot of new faces.

Hahah yeah yeah, still full auto'd you with a mac11 and a famas XD



But yeah the whole stay true to the mission assigned was actually just something i felt like doing as a CO. Everything before lunch was orgistrated by me. After lunch, I let dom and his XO abilities do deals. I was tired But either way i told him to stay true to whatever he said he was going to do. I am personally honor bound to what ill say ill do. Thats why i clarified each time. Otherwise i just did what I wanted to alone, hence the take both Weapons Experts before lunch deal XD

[Dominum]

The guy who told you we were working for Alpha at the time was probably telling the truth as far as he knew, but things change when we either get a better offer or don't get the money we are promised. That was the whole premise of the game for Pete's sake! If you don't like it, maybe it's not the game type for you, and that's OK.

It leaves a bad taste in my mouth when people lie when playing airsoft. So i don't think it should be a teams legal ability to cheat other people out of bases, kills, lives, or objectives.

That's my point entirely, this was one of the few games where a faction was allowed to lie except about actual gameplay mechanics, and this was known going into it. In a normal game that is cheating, but it's not cheating in a game that was specifically advertised as being a non-normal game where a faction is allowed to lie and spys are present that don't really work for a faction, etc. There's nothing wrong with not liking that type of game, but don't go to a game like that and then be unhappy about it being as advertised.

[SteevoLS]

I dunno, it worked fine for me. Let the medics clean up the mess. For me, it was anybody wearing black and at least 100' away got shot.

On that note... Garrett, sorry about your face.

[Murphy]

I dont think everyone was fully....brought up to speed as to how distrustful BW was going to be. If i go to another like this (and trust me i would) i wouldnt leave anyone alive unless they were beside me shooting at the enemy.

Now knowing that you led the second half of the day, everything makes sense. The only people i really knew on BW were felix, luke, and yourself. I trust felix, and as long as skywalkers gun isnt pointed at me i trust him not to turn on me. I wouldnt trust you to clean out my obese daughters toe-nails. No offense lol.

That being said, i think that in the future, a game like this could be run where BW team is honorbound just as much as Alpha or Bravo. I think it would be just as interesting, and better undertood by most players. And hopefully lead a little more all around enjoyment, because isnt a generally enjoyable experience for everyone our ultimate goal?

[Felix]

Thats a good idea, and give me a scenario and ill write it. But the whole issue is that if they are sooo honor bound, then they might as well wear camo. Where would YOU Drew draw the line?

[Dominum]

You shouldn't trust me when I am playing an in-game role where I am supposed to be untrustworthy! When I am not, everyone here will tell you I am as honor bound as they come. Felix back stabbed as much as any of us LOL, that was our job! When a third party is honor bound, it relegates their purpose solely to a balancer, and that's not what this game was about. Had we said to you "BTW, we are totally going to walk into your base in half an hour and shoot you all", it would have ruined it. There was no way to make it anymore clear that BW was not at all honor bound. Had you changed it, it would have been just like any other game. A lot of people love the excitement of tense negotiations, never knowing if you were about to be turned on, and generally having the real world anxiety of a dangerous unknown. I would understand you complaints if this game had been advertised as anything other then exactly what it was, one in which you truly had to expect the unexpected.

[Murphy]

If they take a mission, they aim towards its true completion, unless someone else offers them payment to do otherwise. This would involve a lot of strategy as far as knowing how much money the enemy faction has and knowing how to get in radio contact with charlie CO.

Charlie should be motivated by money, when they are operating neutral they should be hostile to all factions, not just whoever they feel like. If i were a neutral charlie i wouldnt walk up to anyone, i would shoot on site. The only time charlie shot me on site was when they were working for bravo.

If someone asks them a question, they can choose to tell the truth, not respond, or open fire. (The third and the second would most likely be hand in hand the majority of the time, lol).

I think charlie having rules would be easy, charlie making their own rules upset a few kids and i felt bad for them, thats kind of why im standing up for this.

I let a guy, seemingly in his mid-teens borrow one of my guns for a while, when he brought it back to me he told me how some charlie walked up to them pretending to be on their team and coming to respawn at their base, then safety kill everyone. He was rather upset. Which made me feel kinda bad for the guy (whetehr his story was 100% valid or not).

If we ran an all team, well organized, and much larger scale version of this, then i wouldnt have changed a thing, because kids wouldnt have been left guarding bases. It would be no nonsense heavy gunners and snipers who wouldnt deal with asking questions. Charlie wouldnt be stupid enough to try and walk up to those bases.

If BW did one thing different, just make sure no player lies about what team they are working for. That would solve 99% of the butthurt i think.

And Dom you are right i suppose. I'm not compaining about the paid double crossing and stuff here, i think that was all part of the scenario.

[Felix]

see this is all good stuff to listen to, because i kinda agree with this ^

[Hotspur93]

Personally as pissed off as I got at Charlies first betrayal of Bravo at the radio tower I learned quickly. I always kept Charlie players in front of me and almost always had my pistol drawn when I was within my MED. As well I feel I am to blame for Bravo being killed like they were at the radio tower within the first our of the game. As Charlie was approaching our CO radioed that you guys were hired to help us. Now wether that was misinformation or not I confirmed it like 3 times. After having a solid copy I told all the men who wanted to shoot at Charlie to stand down due to our apparent contract with Charlie that was very short lived if there even was one. I do believe Charlie played well and within the rules we as other players just need to learn to think out side the cut and dry box of: see alpha, shoot alpha, see flag, get flag, yell at player not calling hits, etc.
I honestly would love to see a Pt. 2 come about in the near future. As well Charlie drawing it out i believe was part of their role as well because they were in it to make money, and if one side one over the other then they stopped making money. I do know that if another scenario like this arises I will have adpoted procedures similar to what Dom posted as well as my own procedure of keeping my pistol drawn and ready for anything when some TRAITOROUS third party wants to move thru. Hehe just had to throw that traitorous part int

[Murphy]

Im with Hotspur all the way. Everyone on Alpha and Bravo is just a little bit butthurt. How could we not be? We were expected to expect the unexpected, but....its the unexpected. Come on.

Next time, bring a new bag of tricks or you're getting a 1911 and a 6mm bb to the nads.

[Dominum]

Good, you get it. That's the idea.

I almost forgot to say:
I had a great time, though I was added to Charlie team only the day before the game due them losing some numbers, I thoroughly enjoyed myself. I had no issues with anyone other than a few young guys wanting to take off their eyepro. Hopefully they know better know. I saw no dishonorable play, and had no problems with anyone's MEDs. Mojo not only came up with a very fun (well, if you like twists and turns) scenario that really kept everyone on their twos and resulted in a lot of great firefights as well as some serious real world lessons learned, but he also did a great job admining the game. Kudos to all three faction leaders for doing such a great job in their first command roles, I think you both did very well.

Im with Hotspur all the way. Everyone on Alpha and Bravo is just a little bit butthurt. How could we not be? We were expected to expect the unexpected, but....its the unexpected. Come on.

LOL, you got it. I can't say I wasn't butthurt the first time I played a game like this!